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Published Thursday, July 24, 2008 6:05 AM

Police: Dead man was burglar

A man with a lengthy arrest record died late Tuesday from injuries he suffered while breaking into a home on West 15th Street, according to Bryan police.

Curtis Sharod Hall, 26, tried to enter two other homes -- one on Parker Street and another on West 15th -- before breaking through a glass-paneled door of the home where he ultimately was detained around 10 p.m. Tuesday, witnesses said.

When officers arrived, Hall was on the floor of the residence after a struggle with one its occupants, described by neighbors as the son of the couple who live there.

Police say they have no reason to believe that Hall knew the occupants of the home. A man who answered the door Wednesday said everyone inside was "fine" but declined to comment further.

Hall was transported to St. Joseph Regional Health Center, where he was pronounced dead just before 11 p.m. Tuesday.

"He was on something, had to have been," said a Parker Street resident who would identify herself only as Elizabeth. "[Witnesses] said he had cut himself all the way down his gut. He went straight through the glass and into their house. I heard them screaming. It scared the hell out of me. I couldn't sleep all night."

Police said they could not confirm the extent of Hall's injuries. Authorities have ordered an autopsy, and a criminal investigation has begun. Deputy police Chief Peter Scheets said he could not confirm whether Hall was on drugs.

"We didn't see him that way," Scheets said. "When our officers arrived, he was face down, passed out. We are awaiting toxicology reports."

Hall was arrested more than three dozen times in the past eight years on charges including possession of a controlled substance, public intoxication, theft, criminal trespass and assault. Calls placed to Hall's home on West 18th Street were not answered Wednesday.

"The majority of the members of the PD have met Curtis Hall," Scheets said. "He had been identified as a potential violent offender due to his criminal history."

Once a habitual offender is identified, police check on any active cases that person has pending, conduct follow-up investigations and try to collect evidence to get a warrant for arrest. But sometimes, habitual offenders manage to stay out of jail, Scheets said.

"It has to do with the way the criminal justice system processes people," he said. "It starts with police, but then it goes through the courts and into parole and probation."

Bryan's neighborhood enforcement team assigns officers to geographic zones throughout the city. Scheets said that Al Hauke, the officer assigned to the West 15th Street area, would be provided information about the incident so he could share details with area residents.

Herb Barrett, who lives on Parker Street just a few yards away from the home on West 15th, said he was sitting on his porch Tuesday night when he saw a man running past his house. Barrett learned later that it was Hall, who had just come from a residence two doors down, where he'd gone through the back door but had been chased out by the occupants.

"I thought it was a jogger," Barrett said. "I didn't pay any attention."

But then he heard "screaming and hollering" from the West 15th Street home, he said.

"I heard him banging on the door, and then he went around to the back," he said. "They were saying, 'Somebody's breaking in.'"

Barrett walked over to his neighbors' home while Hall was still in the house, he said.

"There was blood all over the backyard," he said.

The 80-year-old said that he lived in a "wonderful neighborhood" and that the incident was highly unusual. He is not concerned for his safety, he said.

"I sit out on the porch every night, and I'll do it again tonight," he said. "I like to sit out here and make sure everything is all right."

• April Avison's e-mail address is april.avison@theeagle.com.



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Comments


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150 comment(s) found!


Posted by: RHAINA H On: 8/13/2008

Comment Title: HAY DIS RHAINA
DIS CURTIS'S COUSIN YALL R SUM MESSED UP PEOPLE BT YALL DA RITE TO SAY WATEVER BT THERE IS JUS 2 THANGS I GOT TO SAY WAT WULD U DU IF ONE OF UR FAMILY MEMBERS OR FRIEND WAS GETTING DISSED LIKED DIS ITS JS RUDE BT WATEV ND DA SECOND CURTIS HAS A SON ND IF YALL DNT WANT NO MORE CRIMINALS IN YALL CITY DEN DO SUMTING TO HELP BT IM 13 ND ALL I KNW IS DAT I LOVE C~U~R~T~I~S

Posted by: Doctor Talus On: 7/30/2008

Comment Title: Career Criminal gone...
Another career criminal and perpetual burden on the productive members of society has been removed and we are all safer because of this. What is the big deal??

Posted by: On: 7/30/2008

Comment Title: Tell it to his victims
Whine all you want, a violent criminal is off the streets. Did he make restitution for all the property he stole/destroyed or pay the hospital bills of the people he physically assaulted? I doubt it.

Posted by: JACKSON On: 7/30/2008

Comment Title: JACKSON- ARDMORE, OK
REGARDLESS OF HOW THIS YOUNG MAN LIVED HIS LIFE. IT WAS HIS LIFE TO LIVE AND THATS WHAT HE DID. EVEN THOUGH THERE IS A LARGE PERCENTAGE OF THOSE WHO WOULD NOT LIVE THAT WAY, THIS YOUNG MAN HAS A SON, FRIENDS, AND FAMILY THAT LOVE HIM DEARLY. PLEASE BE RESPECTFUL OF THE FAMILY. WE ALL KNOW SOMEONE WHO DOES NOT LIVE THEIR LIFE THE WAY THAT WE WOULD. WHETHER THEY ARE ON DRUGS, AN ALCOHOLIC, SMOKER WHATEVER IT MAY BE. YOU LOVE THEM REGARDLESS AND CURTIS HALL IS LOVED AND WILL BE LOVED FOREVER.

Posted by: On: 7/28/2008

Comment Title: BRYAN/COLLEGE STATION
to all the Bryan bashers... College Station is so safe that a young woman cant even job on SouthWest parkway during the evening and have 3 men kidnap her, or have Drugs being grown in your neighbors backyard, or having a liquor store, Hotels, Banks, convenient stores being robbed, oh, lets not forget the Brawl at the night club. Then again, if these "Thugs" are coming from Bryan, they sure are not surviving in Bryan, thats probably why they are going to College station. Yall are nothing but punks and hypocrites. Did yall forget this is Bryan/College Station?? Crimes happen every day, everywhere. So quit bashing and actually do something to make this Community a safer and better place to live.

Posted by: HOUSTON GIRL On: 7/27/2008

Comment Title: god bless
we dont know what will happen to curtis in the next life. We are juding him on earth moral terms. GOD has the desicion. Besides just because you have never stolen or killed doenst mean you are going to heavn either. Do you go to church, do you lie, do you commit adultry, do you pay your tithe? okay...well you might go to hell too so dont judge

Posted by: HOUSTON GIRL On: 7/27/2008

Comment Title: perfect little college station?
yeah right! College station is NOT perfect. I can not beleive someone said college station is too close to the slums of bryan! I know some of you perfect little college station people! hahaha...the same ones that drink and drive go to the porn shop go to the prostitutes..you are no better! you may just have more money to do wrong with. Dont blame an entire city for a few individuals! There are plenty of hardworking upstanding people in bryan. keep your butt in college station then and dont you dare cross into bryan city limits to even buy a toothbrush! bryan has superwalmart so screw you buddy shop at target LOL

Posted by: HOUSTON GIRL On: 7/27/2008

Comment Title: what
you are studid if you think that bryan is the only place with crime and welfare. We dont want you in bryan. Bryan college station is a rapidly growing community of mostly great wonderful people. lots of communities have their own problems but that doenst mean its a bad place to live.

Posted by: On: 7/26/2008

Comment Title:
Bryan the city for a good LIFE? If YOU LIKE CRIME AND MURDER. I will stay in school now. I would hate to be on Welfare and move to Bryan.

Posted by: On: 7/26/2008

Comment Title: Combat 101
Combat 101 is driving near campus on a weekend without getting killed by high, drunk students.

Posted by: On: 7/26/2008

Comment Title:
Bryan 1-win. The REV. Jesse Jackson would have a word about this type of activity.

Posted by: On: 7/25/2008

Comment Title: Hard Crime???
The hard crine is done bt CS students in private. They know what I mean.

Posted by: On: 7/25/2008

Comment Title:
This thug failed,Thug combat 101. A win for Bryan at last. CS needs to learn from the crime hard people of Bryan.

Posted by: Tam On: 7/25/2008

Comment Title: Comments
This is directed towards Nita. Okay, he made the decision to do what he did. The comments that the people on here are making are not harsh. No one deserves to die in such a manner, but what if it had been him killing the homeowner? Would that have been okay with you? He did that to himself and his family doesn't deserve a penny! Try rethinking this issue.

Posted by: On: 7/25/2008

Comment Title: 86%
I hope the person who always writes 26% Bryan drop out rate reads you post. They are like a broken record.

Posted by: On: 7/25/2008

Comment Title: 26%
Did you know that 86% of all statistics are made up?

Posted by: On: 7/25/2008

Comment Title: ITS ASHAME
IT IS ASHAME THAT OUR YOUNG CHILDREN & ADULTS HAVE TURNED TO DRUGS, ALCOHOL, AND ILLEGAL ACTIVITIES. I FEEL FOR THE MOTHER OF THIS YOUNG MAN, BUT I FEEL MORE FOR THE PERSONS THAT HE COULD HAVE DONE HARM TO. THERE ARE PEOPLE IN B-CS THAT ARE HERE TO HELP PEOPLE IN NEED, HE MADE THE CHOICE TO DO DRUGS, HE MADE THE CHOICE TO LIVE THE LIFE THAT WOULD HE WOULD SOON PAY THE ULTIMATE PRICE FOR......

Posted by: On: 7/25/2008

Comment Title: 26%
26% of college students repeatedly drink and drive. Hmmm...which is worse...dropout or drunk driver. CS need so do something about this NOW !

Posted by: On: 7/25/2008

Comment Title: To Again
Amen to that !

Posted by: On: 7/25/2008

Comment Title: Again
This is a comments board. It should not be read by the family because of what they will read. Comments boards are just that, a place to express how people feel, everyone. The funeral is where the family can here all of the good that he did, what little there may be. You are free to say what you want on this board as well. Your feelings are the minority on this board, as you can see.

Posted by: Nita On: 7/25/2008

Comment Title: Take a minute and think
I am from Bryan and I consider myself a hard worker and not on welfare. I agree that the young man was wrong however it is sad that the comments that people are leaving are so rude. There is a yound man dead and he wasnot perfect but he has people who love him all teh same. What if that was your family, would you want these comments to be the only memory you have of that person. I pray for everyone who has left a comment . May God bless you

Posted by: On: 7/25/2008

Comment Title:
cause you are kin to them

Posted by: On: 7/25/2008

Comment Title:
to all the Bryan bashers - you were conceived in Bryan

Posted by: Sabrina On: 7/25/2008

Comment Title: Whats in it for me.........
Yup....you are probably right.

Posted by: On: 7/25/2008

Comment Title: You know it.
I would bet that the family has already been calling attorneys to get some money out of this.

Posted by: Sabrina On: 7/25/2008

Comment Title: Amen to that.......
Attn: President of the Realist Party - I could not have said it better. Very well written.

Posted by: On: 7/25/2008

Comment Title: 26% BISD Drop OUT RATE
Does anyone stay in school in Bryan? Is it the power of Drugs? Are just welfare?

Posted by: On: 7/25/2008

Comment Title:
The Bryan way of life.

Posted by: On: 7/25/2008

Comment Title:
Bryan finest. City out of control.

Posted by: On: 7/25/2008

Comment Title:
Coming from someone who works at the CSPD, if everyone only knew of the things that went on in college station everyday... you would not be saying these things about Bryan. We are sister city's and both have a high rate of crime. Parents don't want to send there kids to college in a town where crime is plastered all over the headlines. Only the big things get out in CS. Bryan is just the entertainment of the two. When your in the brains of the whole operation you see the truth. The truth is he was a criminal, he's dead, who knows what he would have done in the home if he had got inside.

Posted by: On: 7/25/2008

Comment Title:
Start locking the rich kids at college station jail and stop runing them to bryan to get lock up because they are scared straight little kids daddy come and get me please and then daddy come running grow up rich kids because the thugs do what they can to make it in the white man world

Posted by: On: 7/25/2008

Comment Title:
FYI....These college kids are getting their drugs from Dallas, Austin and Houston...bringing the big city to town .

Posted by: On: 7/25/2008

Comment Title:
I agree Bryan trash is having a bad effect on CS.

Posted by: On: 7/25/2008

Comment Title: Drugs
The drugs all over CS are the rich kid drugs like Xanax, Vicoden and Oxycontin. They get them from their parents.

Posted by: On: 7/24/2008

Comment Title:
We are just to close to the slums of Bryan and it's strong effects.

Posted by: On: 7/24/2008

Comment Title: CS
Yeah...CS is full of addicted kids that I consider thugs.Recreational drug city.

Posted by: On: 7/24/2008

Comment Title:
Substance abuse is all over the place. I know so many so called"nice people" who abuse prescription narcotics and are on the streets. I live is C.S and I am afraid of thse people as well as all the drunk drivers.

Posted by: On: 7/24/2008

Comment Title:
Joe Horn would like it this way.

Posted by: On: 7/24/2008

Comment Title:
Good Job on the Thug.

Posted by: REGINA On: 7/24/2008

Comment Title: COME ON YALL
IF THE BOY TRYING TO BREAK IN THE HOUSE WHY WOULD HE BE BEATING ON DOORS .THE WORD IS HE WAS ON PCP.BUT THOSE MEXICANS GUTTED THAT BOY TO DEATH THEY NOT GONE TELL IT ON EACH OTHER

Posted by: On: 7/24/2008

Comment Title: 911 not needed
Come into my Bryan house and you will get a shotgun blast. Family is trained and locked and loaded in a thug filled city.

Posted by: On: 7/24/2008

Comment Title:
Agree this thug was on the attack,not buying a cup of coffee.

Posted by: On: 7/24/2008

Comment Title: Respect?
You must be out of you mind Rozz.Doesnt seem to me that ole good upright Curtis had any respect for the homeowners that he was breaking into.Maybe his family is to balme some in this. When kids go wrong id say its the parents fault. I watch my kids and when they do somthing wrong , i let them know it an it will not be tolerated.Only respect i have is for the poor family that he broke into.They are the victims and will have to live with this the rest of their lives.Get a gripe Rozz . And i dont think anyone heres PASSING JUDGEMENT , they are stating their feelings on a topic that happens to alot of people.ANd for those that say he was a Good Giving person...yeah right...we just dont know him. Too bad , sounds like just the kinda person i would have loved to go hang out with .

Posted by: On: 7/24/2008

Comment Title:
Thugs are us. Bryan.

Posted by: rozzie On: 7/24/2008

Comment Title: curtis' death
First of all watch what you say lovely because you dont know me. And its not boohoo crap its the truth and trust me everything thats a cause always has an effect behind it but you cant call it. And thats my word. But you still need to respect the family if you dont respect him.

Posted by: On: 7/24/2008

Comment Title:
NBA-------Normal Bryan activity.

Posted by: On: 7/24/2008

Comment Title: Again
Here we go again with the boo hoo hoo crap from Rozzie and the don't judge him crap. This is no tragedy at all. Too bad ole curtis can't come pay you a visit.

Posted by: Rozzie On: 7/24/2008

Comment Title: curtis' death
U people have to be the most rude and hipocritical people in the world. U dont have the power to say that this man is scum or to judge him. Maybe he does go to hell but you will never know unless u see him there. The things that you all are doing is just not right. Half of ya'll just wanna have something to do and that is to play on the computer. Whether you can see it or not this is a tragedy and if you have a problem or think that your kids will end up troubled then keep an eye on them, be all in they business until then youcant comment on someone elses parenting. i feel sorry for him and his family because what is being said in these comments are rude and disrespectful. My heart goes out to them all!

Posted by: On: 7/24/2008

Comment Title: Pat
Yes, they are that stupid, because "theys heard" that. Well, we heard different. They also say, "you weren't there, how do you people know?" Well, they weren't there either and if they were, why didn't they help him? He wasn't looking for help, he was there to steal, like he always did. Plus, he tried to break in two other houses before this one. Oh, he must have been looking for help in those houses too, huh? See ya, curtis.

Posted by: Pat On: 7/24/2008

Comment Title: Bryan trash
I love how some people on here say curtis was "looking for help" are you people that stupid.

Posted by: Tee On: 7/24/2008

Comment Title: ridiculous from a BHS graduate
Some of these posts are ridiculous. The sad thing is that I have read them all, rather than moving to another story. This is a terrible situation for everyone involved.

Posted by: On: 7/24/2008

Comment Title: Worm to another worm
One worm to another, "geez, he tastes like chicken"

Posted by: On: 7/24/2008

Comment Title:
Did TDC close down a prison. What going on in Bryan.

Posted by: On: 7/24/2008

Comment Title: Why
Why should the innocent worms be punished?

Posted by: Obama Supporter On: 7/24/2008

Comment Title: Good News!
I love stories like this. There is nothing like a happy ending. The best news is this convicted felon will soon be worm food.

Posted by: On: 7/24/2008

Comment Title: Phoney posts
Please be aware that there are some "phoney" posts below. The white racists who posted them have chosen names that some people tend to associate with African-Americans -- and these racists are feeling so very clever about it.

Posted by: On: 7/24/2008

Comment Title:
Bryan people on the move. Lock the doors get the kids off the bikes.

Posted by: On: 7/24/2008

Comment Title: Clay
The people of ghetto and slums of Bryan look to be getting up.

Posted by: On: 7/24/2008

Comment Title: drinkers
When are the drinkers going to be posting tonight? Hang on, I need to make a drink

Posted by: On: 7/24/2008

Comment Title: Ginny
Go to bed, you are to old to on this board this late at night. Luby's is closed, now go to bed.

Posted by: ginny On: 7/24/2008

Comment Title: lol
stupid criminals and people that can't spell.i don't know what this world is coming to.let's take everyone that wants to be a criminal and send them to iraq with a one-way ticket

Posted by: On: 7/24/2008

Comment Title: I am PERIOD
There is a difference between being critical and suggesting that someone be able to coherently compose a paragraph for others to legibly read! For Example from our friend KENDRA: "HE WAS A LIVENG PERSON WHO ALWAYS WAS LOOKING TO HELP SMBODEY OIN NEED OF HELP BEYAN IS A HEAVAN TO ME AND MINE IF YOU DONT LIKE BRYAN THEN MOVE WE DONT CARE ABOT YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!" Seriously? Did a 3 year old child write this or a coherent adult who is attempting to engage others in a civil conversation? I'm suggesting that KENDRA and all her little mumbly-bumbly friends learn how to speak/write!

Posted by: On: 7/24/2008

Comment Title: Moving from Bryan ?
A person commented that they were glad they moved from Bryan. I live in C.S. and I hate to admit it, but some of the more moronic , closed minded, judgemental statements are coming from my fellow residents.

Posted by: On: 7/24/2008

Comment Title: Y'all has an apostrophe
It is short for you all.I would think anyone who is being so darn critical should be perfect.

Posted by: On: 7/24/2008

Comment Title: I am PERIOD
I think we've established that nobody's grammar is perfect. However, “yall” is a commonly used (for centuries) word (...and yes it is in the dictionary). The complete absence of punctuation, run-on sentences, misspelled words, etc, etc…this is to what I speak.

Posted by: On: 7/24/2008

Comment Title: O Brother
As I sad before..Oh u mean SAID , i gotcha now LoL

Posted by: On: 7/24/2008

Comment Title: To "O Brother"
Before YOU try and make comments, you should run your own spelling and grammar check! It's "whether" not "weather". Are you some busted up meteorologist or something?! As I sad before, you people get a life!

Posted by: On: 7/24/2008

Comment Title:
I know i did the best thing for my family by moving from Bryan now. BISD-Sucks.

Posted by: On: 7/24/2008

Comment Title: Sad
I think what is sad is that people use a horrible situation to write self-serving comments.

Posted by: Hey period...... On: 7/24/2008

Comment Title: Grammar
Before you start being crtitcal, you need to look up your grammar rules. Also, try finding yall's in the dictionary.

Posted by: On: 7/24/2008

Comment Title: O Brother
to it's called a PERIOD , no its called Ebonics. THEY spell it like THEY say it. Weather they know the difference or not , i dont know. But i do know this fine upstanding young man got just what he deserved. You dont break into someone else HOUSE ! Oh and the "he was looking for help" dont make me laff. He was looking for an easy target and got his just deserve.Weather he had a rap sheet a mile long or not you dont break into someones house . And i will do my bestest to not b hatin on him no moe !

Posted by: On: 7/24/2008

Comment Title:
Bryan has become a wasteland of Crime and gangs. Sad.

Posted by: Oscar On: 7/24/2008

Comment Title: tolisha
tolisha.....damn girl you is dum......you gradurated....damn

Posted by: Tim On: 7/24/2008

Comment Title: BE CAREFUL
You should never wish death upon anybody, no matter what the circumstances.

Posted by: On: 7/24/2008

Comment Title: Trapped by rats again day 3
Bryan in it's finest moments. Day 3

Posted by: On: 7/24/2008

Comment Title:
I will not let my family in Bryan for the below reasons.

Posted by: On: 7/24/2008

Comment Title: Sorry
It should have read, "you b wanten some fries wit dat"?

Posted by: On: 7/24/2008

Comment Title: it's called a PERIOD
Several of yall's comments would be much easier to read/understand if you started using that little key that has a dot on it...it's called a period. It's a form of punctuation.

Posted by: On: 7/24/2008

Comment Title: Kateta
No, we did not do all the stuff he did in the past. You are right, he wasn't as bad, he was much worse than we thought. And yes, he can now rest. Have you learned the sentence, "would you like fries with that" yet? You should.

Posted by: On: 7/24/2008

Comment Title: LOL
"Bryan thugs talking trash. One more reson Bryan is out of Control. They think the can bully Anyone by saying we are in are in arms reach of them. Bryan trash at it Best." WTF? You people need to get off the computer talking about Bryan because you are making a fool of yourselves!

Posted by: KATETA On: 7/24/2008

Comment Title: KATETA LOVES CURTIS FO LIFE
TO YOU PEOPLE HATENG ON CURTIS GOD LOVES CURTIS AND HE WAS ALWEYS WORKING WHEN I NEW HIM LET HIM REST HE WASENT AS BAD AS YOU PEOPLE SAY HE DID STUFF ALL YOU DONE DID IN THE PAST I HOPE THIS HAPENS TO YOU

Posted by: On: 7/24/2008

Comment Title:
Bryan thugs talking trash. One more reson Bryan is out of Control. They think the can bully Anyone by saying we are in are in arms reach of them. Bryan trash at it Best.

Posted by: On: 7/24/2008

Comment Title: Reader
I agree. I just think it becomes childish when you have to turn to name calling.

Posted by: On: 7/24/2008

Comment Title: Comments Board
It is amazing to me how many people have said, "Stop saying rude things about Curtis", "God will judge him", and "He b a good person". If you do not like what is said on this message board or do not like the comments, stop reading the comments board. And for all of the "God" people on here, in the bible it mentions a place called Hell. It says that people do qualify to get in there, this person probably qualifies, but not for me to judge. However, we live in a society where God is not present to judge people. We have laws and we do judge people. If you live in our society, as with many societies before us and B.C., you must live by those laws and you will be judged. Yes, by a court of law, in which he was judged. Curtis did this to himself. No judgement, no vengence, just a criminal that broke into a house and two others before that, and ended up dead. Some have mentioned Karma, this was the truest form of Karma. Am I "judging" because I think he got what he deserved? OK, we all do. Those that preach they do not judge, are hipocrites. You do, everyday. You, possibly, are human as well, and human beings judge. The family and friends defend him, of course they will,they loved him. But the victims, which is every taxpayer in this county, should not. Did we wish for his death? No, but ironically it came to him anyway, brought on by his own actions. The family should not be reading this message board, you will hear what you do not want to hear about him. For the others, this is a comments board, if you don't like the comments, stop reading them.

Posted by: Sue On: 7/24/2008

Comment Title: Crack
Some of the posters here smoke wayyy too much crack. My god bryan high must be a terrible school but really it is on the parents of people like curtis.

Posted by: On: 7/24/2008

Comment Title: GED
tolisha, kendra and tyrone need to.....learn how to spell. i feel so bad that they are sooooo dumb. WHY???? Pay attention in class or you will only work @ Mc Donalds.

Posted by: On: 7/24/2008

Comment Title:
this is a whole bunch of mess i dont like the way yall dissin this man an bryan this is a bunch of bull

Posted by: On: 7/24/2008

Comment Title:
No sweetie, I never said he wasn't wrong for what he did. I am simply stating that you fools need to show some respect to is family. Haven't you ever heard the saying "if you don't have anything nice to say, KEEP YOU'RE MOUTH SHUT!" Thanks for your two cents anyways!

Posted by: On: 7/24/2008

Comment Title: Relative
That was sarcasm, but I am sure you would not get that.

Posted by: Peter On: 7/24/2008

Comment Title: troll
I think "Relative" is a ignorant troll.

Posted by: Relative On: 7/24/2008

Comment Title:
...and for the record, I did see my typo. It says "ruse" when it should say "rude". As for you, you just dont make any sense at all!